sync sound :-)

[mattias]

hey,

finally got in touch with kahl film, and i've sent the film back to them -- let's see what happens. the transfer i got seemed fine for syncing up audio and rough cutting though, so i did. i can now tell you that i am the proud owner of a non crystal 814e that runs at exactly 24 fps. i sort of knew this before, but this was the first real world test. one shot is two minutes long, and the tail slate lined up less than one frame off. impressive, huh? now if i can only get rid of this camera noise... (just kidding)

/matt

[MovieStuff]

Yeah, crystal synch is highly over rated, if you ask me. If you're working as a one man band and your going to transfer the audio yourself, then synching is not that big a deal. I can't even begin to count the number of things I've shot wild and they matched right up.

Now, if you're shooting 16mm and are going to be sending a ton of footage to the lab and you need dailies back with sound, the lab isn't going to want to screw with wild sound without charging you out the butt. So crystal is a definite plus in that scenerio. Otherwise, just do it wild and get on with it.

Congrats on the status or your camera and the fact that them bad boys are gonna' do you right.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[Konton]

I don't know about that. I don't want wild sound to control my editing decisions. Of course there is no way in hell I'm going to pay to crystal sync a Super 8mm camera. But I'd like to have a film where for two minutes I don't have a to make an edit. I'm just glad it's possible for me do it now. Thanks Pedro! The Synchronizer P1008 is working great!

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Konton the Grey

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Konton:
I don't know about that. I don't want wild sound to control my editing decisions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't follow you at all. Anyone with a decent super 8 camera can run an entire 50 foot roll with no synch loss using wild synch, assuming you are editing on a computer. If you're editing mag track, then that's a different matter, of course. But for digital editing, 2.5 minutes is a breeze.

Roger

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Roger Evans
MovieStuff
http://www.afterimagephoto.tv/moviestuff.html

[#Pedro]

Roger, I think in all discussions we have distinguish very clearly if we are talking about film or digital, which usually ends up in watching VHS video. And I think, Konton was talking about film.

The big target is syncing film and editing a complete soundtrack in a way that we have a real projectable film as a result. And going with this, even a very constant running camera and a very constant running projector may not be enough when the camera is running at 23,9000000 Hz and the projector at 24,1000000 Hz. We have to force the two beasts together, at the short line, making them running in parallel at only one framerate. And that can be done nowadays electronically and digital and even compensats speeding up and slowing down processes. The sync technology is not new and used also for semi-prof S8-productions since the 1970ies.

For sound editing, you can even use a rather cheap 4 track tape machine out off ebay, load it with perfo tape and put it on the place of the projector. Now you edit whatever you want, on 4 tracks in parallel, by intuitively sliding the big and handsome controls of a mixing desc, refering to the film image running in parallel in sync or refering to the digital frame counter and your storyboard. You can go to desired frame numbers by playing, fast rewinding or forwarding, or moving the tape reels by hand, without loosing sync.

The digital frame counter connected to the tape machine is programmable and can start external sound sources by remote, exactly at a determined frame number.

Sync field sound can be transfered to the 4 track machine, when it is recorded either crystal synced (crystal camera and MD) or has a 1000 Hz pulse track for syncing (flash contact camera with AV-tape). Pilot tone cannot be handled.

When having a pulse track, the transfer is even semi-automatical: You position your tape to the frame number where the sound should start and your pulse tape a little bit before the szene begins. Then you sync lock the synchronizer, switch the tape to rec mode and start the pulse tape. With the first incoming pulse (= 1st camera frame) from the pulse tape, the 4 track tape starts by remote and is forced exactly to the pulse tape?s speed (= camera framerate during shooting). After the last pulse of the seria is over, the 4 track tape is shut off by remote, and the sound szene is transfered to one of the tracks in perfect, frame accurate sync. No stretching and squeezing.
The other 3 tracks give enough space for adding music and other sounds.

Crystal synced field sound (MD) must be slated manually to the szene start frame, therefore a pulse tape could be easyer and to handle.

For some people that "linear" way may be more convienient and direct than mouse clicking and dealing with tricky software programs. You have an easyer "human interface" and direct results. Here we must be tolerant and accept the differnt ways that are existing. THe result is what is important, and digital is not automatically better. Even analouge sound "can" be better than digital, if only controlled right.

On the other hand, the synchronizer P1008, version "Q", allows you to crystal sync even the projector or the old 1970ies tape machine, (or your motor viewer during editing), in a very easy and accurate way, in order to go over to digital and edit sound there.

But different to many other systems, solutions or ideas, the synchronizer keeps open the way back to film. No one way ticket to digital and video.
You can f.e. create a sound track CD on computer and the play it along with your film that is running crystal accurate thru the projector. Or transfer it back to sound stripe, for a easy-to-handle sound print.

Pedro

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[Konton]

Ummmm . . . yeah . . . what Pedro said. *grin*

I'm not editing my film digitally. I'm working with my film as film. I'm editing my master, sound striping it, then transferring my audio onto the sound stripe. And although I have to agree that having a tale slate be only one frame off is excellent, not all of us can be so lucky.

Right now I got a Nizo 6080, a Marantz recorder with sound sync connection, a Mag IV player (the recorder part is broken) and a Bauer T610 adapted to use Pedro's synchronizer P1008.

With the Marantz I record the audio and the Khz bursts per frame using the flash contact on the Nizo 6080. With the Bauer T610 I transfer the audio to fullcoat (the P1008 allows the Bauer T610 to run at exactly 24fps or controlled by the Khz bursts from the tape recorder). With some winders, a synchronizer, Super 8 sound head, and a squack box box (I use the Goko TC-20 with a video camera and a monitor as my viewer) I edit my film and fullcoat together. Using the Bolex Weberling sound striper I stripe my edited film. Then with the Mag IV and the Bauer T610 connected and set to run at 24fps, I do the audio transfer of the audio to the sound stripe.

Oh the post-production fun! Then I get to project with my Beaulieu 708EL so it's 12 feet tall! Damn I love film. So much better than watching it on a 32 inch TV. Come on people! Let's get that super 8mm film group in LA going!!!

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Konton the Grey

[stanley k]

Konton,

Damnit, man, your enthusiasm is contagious. Yes, lets get this bad boy together in LA. I have time either day of the weekend. The only problem would be where to meet. How's your place? I live in Ventura county now or else I would have it here. Any volunteers?

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[chas_ucla]

Why don't we meet at Justin (Konton's) place?
Maybe we can bring our films and show what we have done...

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[Konton]

Okay . . . we can meet at my place. But let's reply to the new thread for this. I don't think people will look here about having a meeting in LA.

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Konton the Grey